Ground Spawns - Design

[John Adams]

The code automatically gets the highest available item that is lower than your score. So if you rolled an 11 it would give the item step up with a min_score of 10, but not the one with a min_score of 5. If there are multiple min_scores that are the same for your particular prize level, it randomly picks one.

Sorry, I am still not getting Problem #2.

In the one groundspawn entry:
I have 2 common ores; tin cluster and leaded loam.
I have 2 rare ores; bronze cluster and solified loam.

Harvesting 1, 3, 5, and 10 all yield the right amount, though I probably want to make them a little rarer as you suggested.
When the rare is triggered, I properly get the rare 1 bronze cluster, or the 1 solidified loam.

It's when you score the 10 of either that there is a problem - or my lack of understanding.

When the harvest for the 10 of either is triggered, the player gets the 10 items. But, they should also get a correlating rare item depending which 10 commons they got. If they get tin, the bonus should be 1 bronze. If they get 10 leaded, they get 1 solidified.

So the question is, how do I guarentee this effect using the fact that 2 bonus rewards are possible - but specifically, only one depending on which one triggered it?

Make sense?

[John Adams]

OK, I've got an idea. We add a hit_percentage field that ranges from 1-100 and always you to specify how often that item should be given IF the player's roll is higher than min_score. So in your example's case if we specify that the item can only be given 70% of the time then even if the player's max is 400 they wont get it more than 70%. This will have the side effect of slightly reducing gather rates at lower levels, but I think it is needed.

I like the idea, though it seems to be a bandaid over the problem of how 400/400 mining will not force a 99.999% chance of getting rares everytime off a T1 node.

Maybe there is a way to use the min_score as a multiplier with your current/max harvesting level to determine if you score something off the node? So if you are skill 5, and min_score is 5, it works out the same if you are skill 400 and min_score is 5.

[John Adams]

Sorry, edited my post above (if you missed it heh).

Here's my second concern, regarding the min_score for Tier 1 harvestables. I was going under some assumption that the values here needed to be 1-5 - even though my characters harvest skill could be 20/20 in Tier 1 zones.

Should I be using 1 - 20 for min_score instead? The same groundspawn_entry is used throughout tier 1 zones, though the player starts at 1/5 skill, eventually should get to 20/20 max in Tier 1 (I think). Then to gain more skill, must move to T2 zones...

But meanwhile, a character with 20/20 in mining will far exceed the 1-5 min_scores I am setting on ores. Am I understanding min_score at all? I don't think so.

[LethalEncounter]

The code automatically gets the highest available item that is lower than your score. So if you rolled an 11 it would give the item step up with a min_score of 10, but not the one with a min_score of 5. If there are multiple min_scores that are the same for your particular prize level, it randomly picks one.

Sorry, I am still not getting Problem #2.

I have 2 common ores; tin cluster and leaded loam.

In the rare case the player harvests 10 tin cluster, the player should also receive 1 bronze cluster (the rare metal).

However, in my groundspawn_items configuration, I have a 10 leaded loam + 1 solidified loam option as well.

So if the player is mining the compound ore at any skill level, they may strike the 10 tin clusters + 1 bronze cluster, or the 10 leaded loam + 1 solidified loam. But I think what is happening is only the first entry in the groundspawn_bonus table is being rewarded (I think! I haven't gotten a 10 leaded yet heh).

The question/problem is, how do you tie the entry for 10 {item} to the trigger_bonus, to a specific bonus reward in groundspawn_bonus - if there is more than 1 groundspawn_bonus possibility, depending on what groundspawn_item triggered it?

Wow. Say that 10 times fast.

Nope, there is a chance for it to hit either. It is random although it might have a tendency to choose the first one a little more often. If more than one bonus item is set up in the table and the player's roll is good enough for multiple items, it chooses the one with the smallest percentage (ie the best rare it can get). Check out void GroundSpawn::ProcessHarvest(Client* client). The code is pretty straight forward.

[LethalEncounter]

OK, I've got an idea. We add a hit_percentage field that ranges from 1-100 and always you to specify how often that item should be given IF the player's roll is higher than min_score. So in your example's case if we specify that the item can only be given 70% of the time then even if the player's max is 400 they wont get it more than 70%. This will have the side effect of slightly reducing gather rates at lower levels, but I think it is needed.

I like the idea, though it seems to be a bandaid over the problem of how 400/400 mining will not force a 99.999% chance of getting rares everytime off a T1 node.

Maybe there is a way to use the min_score as a multiplier with your current/max harvesting level to determine if you score something off the node? So if you are skill 5, and min_score is 5, it works out the same if you are skill 400 and min_score is 5.

If you have a better idea I'm all ears

[LethalEncounter]

Sorry, edited my post above (if you missed it heh).

Here's my second concern, regarding the min_score for Tier 1 harvestables. I was going under some assumption that the values here needed to be 1-5 - even though my characters harvest skill could be 20/20 in Tier 1 zones.

Should I be using 1 - 20 for min_score instead? The same groundspawn_entry is used throughout tier 1 zones, though the player starts at 1/5 skill, eventually should get to 20/20 max in Tier 1 (I think). Then to gain more skill, must move to T2 zones...

But meanwhile, a character with 20/20 in mining will far exceed the 1-5 min_scores I am setting on ores. Am I understanding min_score at all? I don't think so.

min_score is the lowest score you need to get that item. If you set it to 20, there is no possible way that a player could get the item for their first few levels.

[John Adams]

If you have a better idea I'm all ears

Nah, that is the extent of my idea-havin's.

[John Adams]

Nope, there is a chance for it to hit either. It is random although it might have a tendency to choose the first one a little more often. If more than one bonus item is set up in the table and the player's roll is good enough for multiple items, it chooses the one with the smallest percentage (ie the best rare it can get). Check out void GroundSpawn::ProcessHarvest(Client* client). The code is pretty straight forward.

I'll check out the code, but what I am starting to get out of all this is, I am not doing anything wrong config-wise, this is just how it is. And if that's the case, we may need to change this up a little.

Unless someone more familiar with Harvesting can tell me that on Live, when you are rewarded with 10 tin clusters, you get 1 solidified loam as the rare (not the same type)... then I have to say we need a way to link the triggered record to the specific bonus.

min_score is the lowest score you need to get that item. If you set it to 20, there is no possible way that a player could get the item for their first few levels.

Knowing this, do you think then that it is more Live-like that a player with a 20/20 in Mining will most likely receive the 3, 5, or 10+rare or a Rare when mining T1 nodes? That's my point in this... and I'll go test it to make sure I am not making a mountain out of a mole hill But perhaps this is where your % you talked about will help balance things out.

[Scatman]

Yeah, in some nodes, if you harvest 10 of A, you get the corresponding rare item. Harvesting 10 of B will give you the corresponding rare item for B. Would it be possible to add another field to the groundspawn_entry table like item_id_link that if the bonus_trigger is 1, and a bonus is triggered, it looks at the item_id_link. If it's -1 or NULL, then choose at random a bonus item, otherwise use the item_id given?

[LethalEncounter]

I can make it do whatever you guys need. Just let me know how you would like it and I'll make it so; think about it and get back to me. I am working on the group stuff right now, so you have a few days before my hands are free again anyways.

[John Adams]

Cool deal, yeah we'll run a few more tests on how things are now. I think there are a few bugs with it, but likely not "bugs" as much as just something else to consider. Scat and I will put our heads together with the team and nail a definitive requirement.

No hurry on "fixing" anything here, I'm just reporting the news! Grouping! Yes!!

[Zcoretri]

In the one groundspawn entry:
I have 2 common ores; tin cluster and leaded loam.
I have 2 rare ores; bronze cluster and solified loam.

Harvesting 1, 3, 5, and 10 all yield the right amount, though I probably want to make them a little rarer as you suggested.
When the rare is triggered, I properly get the rare 1 bronze cluster, or the 1 solidified loam.

It's when you score the 10 of either that there is a problem - or my lack of understanding.

When the harvest for the 10 of either is triggered, the player gets the 10 items. But, they should also get a correlating rare item depending which 10 commons they got. If they get tin, the bonus should be 1 bronze. If they get 10 leaded, they get 1 solidified.

So the question is, how do I guarantee this effect using the fact that 2 bonus rewards are possible - but specifically, only one depending on which one triggered it?

Make sense?

When harvest ten of tin or a loam, you get a chance of either the rares, bronze or solidified loam. I'm almost positive this is how it works, but I would have to verify its the case. You also get a better chance at pulling rares from nodes the higher your max skill is vs. the tier you are harvesting from. I found a section and pasted below...

Code: Select all

One, Three ... Many?
Harvesting changes hit the live servers with LU24 (June 14), which allow you to receive more than one resource per harvesting attempt. You will no longer receive messages that harvesting an item is trivial for you, and on any harvest where your current skill is above the maximum skill raise cap for the area, you will not fail on a harvest. (In other words: if your gathering skill is 94/95 in Antonica, and the maximum you can raise gathering in Antonica is 95, you'll have a chance to fail on the harvesting attempt and/or receive a skillup. If your gathering skill is 105/105 in that same zone, however, you will no longer fail on a harvesting attempt.) With each successful harvesting attempt, one of several things can happen:

    * You can receive a single common resource
    * You can receive 3 of the same common resource
    * You can receive 5 of the same common resource
    * You can receive a rare (this includes imbue items, which the game considers "rare")
    * You can receive 10 of a single common resource plus one rare ("10+1")

Anyone able to harvest in specific zone has a chance at any of the above events. While higher skill can slightly increase your chance of higher yields, never forget that we are always at the whim of the RNG (random number generator) and we'll all have good days and bad days harvesting. We can just do that harvesting significantly faster now. 

Hope this helps explain things John

[Zcoretri]

A little more added info from the tradeskill dev from SOE...

Code: Select all

Just to clarify ... as stated, I'm looking into it this week, and yes, it will be tweaked a bit this week.

The following will change:

    * yet more pelts than meats (in 100 harvests, look for about 66 pelts and 33 meats)
    * fewer rares in T2+ -- so overall, a slightly higher rate of rares in T2-T6 than we had before GU37 (by no more than 0.22% at most - that in T2 and T3 - less than 0.1% difference everywhere else - with the exception of 2-rare nodes, see below)

That said it will still FEEL like more rares than before GU37 for three main reasons:

   1. bushes now drop roots, so if you regularly harvest bushes, you'll end up with a lot more roots than you would have when they had no rare
   2. nodes with 2 rares will drop rares more often.  Previously they were dropping rares at the same rate as other nodes which had only one rare.  This meant that they were actually dropping each individual rare type HALF as often as the rare from a single-type node like roots or dens, meaning only half as many rare loam, ore, soft metal, and gems were entering the world as rare roots or pelts.  So yes, these will now drop at the same rate as rare pelts.
   3. the level at which you start using the bonus result table is now lower.  Prior to GU37, none of us could even use the bonus harvest result tables for T7 (OR T6) at all.  Now, we start having a chance to.

For those who don't know what I'm referring to with the bonus result tables, harvesting works as follows.  (If you really don't care about details you can skip this bit.)

For each node in each zone, when you harvest it, there are different result tables set up that tell the game what to give you when you harvest.  Your skill level determines which table you use.

For example, using entirely invented numbers, let's imagine that there is a root node in a level 30-40 zone and you go and harvest it with a gathering skill of 190.

The game sees that the root node points to two result tables.  Let's call them:

T4_roots_base_result  - required skill 140
T4_roots_bonus_result - required skill 189

    * The "base" table might tell you that you have a 70% chance of getting 1 root, a 20% chance of getting 3 roots, an 8% chance of getting 5 roots, a 1% chance of getting an imbue, a 0.7% chance of getting a rare root, and a 0.3% chance of getting a rare root + 10 common ones.

    * The "bonus" table might tell you that you have a 60% chance of getting 1 root, a 25% chance of getting 3 roots, an 10% chance of getting 5 roots, a 0.5% chance of getting an imbue, a 0.8% chance of getting a rare root, and a 0.7% chance of getting a rare root + 10 common ones.

(Yes, the numbers probably don't add up to 100%, I just invented them on the spot.)

Now we know that if your skill is under 140, you can't harvest the node at all.  And we know your skill is 190.  So the RNG rolls a number between 140 and 190.  If it gets 140-188, you use the "base" result table.  If it gets 189+, you use the "bonus" result table.  Clearly, as your gathering skill increases, your chance of using the "bonus" result table gets better.  (This is where +harvesting skill items affect your results, they increase your chance of using the bonus table.)

As of GU37, you get to start using the "bonus" table at level _8 (so, 8, 18, 28, 38, etc.)  You're still not guaranteed to use it, but you have a CHANCE to use it.  Previous to GU37, the level at which you could start getting the bonus was much higher, so that you didn't even have a chance to get the bonus table until you had entirely outlevelled the tier.  In T6 and T7 prior to GU37 we still couldn't even start using the bonus level at level 70 with 350 skill, so we've been harvesting off the "base" table all this time.  Now we will begin to have a chance to use the "bonus" level, so yes, we'll get slightly better harvesting results in T6 and T7 than we were before, but it's actually about the same results as we would eventually have got as the level cap raised and we continued to level up.

Incidentally, all nodes within a level range (in this example, all nodes in level 30-40 zones) point to the same result tables, so it makes no difference whether you're harvesting in one zone or another.

This change will be hotfixed in this week if all goes well.  In the mean time consider it a little short-term bonus and enjoy.

[John Adams]

That is frikkin awesome information Zcoretri. Thank you for digging that up. I can totally see our current system working just like this. My mistake in config was setting the 10-item harvest as teh normal, and the rare as the bonus. I see now, I need to swap those and set a higher min_score for the 10+1 rare reward. I'll try that out.

However, this still does not confirm of deny the fact that if you harvest a rare Loam, you get 10 Tin. That would make no sense, and honestly, I cannot say I ever saw different types being harvested together.

Proof in the puddin, puddin!

You acquire 10 \aITEM 420312695 -1981514135:boiled leather pelt\/a from the beast den.
You have found a rare item!
You acquire 1 \aITEM 1089447344 -307487981:cuirboilli leather pelt\/a from the beast den.

You mine 10 \aITEM 1272401169 -371256558:carbonite cluster\/a from the stonecrest ore.
You have found a rare item!
You mine 1 \aITEM -1820272970 -46382850:steel cluster\/a from the stonecrest ore.

You forest 10 \aITEM -862999234 1055187525:severed ash\/a from the felled high plains arbor.
You have found a rare item!
You forest 1 \aITEM -2021031067 1994717025:severed fir\/a from the felled high plains arbor.

You gathered 10 \aITEM -124283904 503679992:tussah root\/a from the velvety roots.
You have found a rare item!
You gathered 1 \aITEM -690692188 714416906:oak root\/a from the velvety roots.

You forest 10 \aITEM 1699653706 1952091963:severed briarwood\/a from the wretched arbor.
You have found a rare item!
You forest 1 \aITEM -270192395 -712511962:severed oak\/a from the wretched arbor.

You mined 10 \aITEM 2082209905 359096865:velium cluster\/a from the rhythmic stone.
You have found a rare item!
You mined 1 \aITEM -634402972 -709455268:ruthenium cluster\/a from the rhythmic stone.

These are examples from a marathon harvesting session I did last Jan. 10+ hours. I can say with 99.9% certainty, I never got a Loam with a Metal. It was always Metal + Rare Metal, Wood + Rare Wood, etc. But again, I could be wrong. Prove it! Cuz if I am right, we have to somehow link groundspawn_items with groundspawn_bonus.

And looking at that dev explain their tables and values, maybe there is something to change in this regardless. Later.

Thanks again for the info.

[Bion]

A good site to tell you what drops where or anything tradeskill related is eq2 trader's corner it is pretty up-to-date

I think even though loams drop from hard metal nodes they act as 2 seperate items like if you get 10 + common metals then you will get the metal rare etc.
I thought i remember reading a post on this but can't find it atm